Comments on: Brexit is an economic catastrophe – the sooner it is dumped the better https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped Tue, 11 Sep 2018 13:13:30 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.3.4 By: openDemocracy admin https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-927 Tue, 02 Jan 2018 19:44:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-927 Your comment was deleted because it was an abusive, ad hominem attack. Please read the openDemocracy comment guidelines: https://www.opendemocracy.net/info/opendemocracy-comment-guidelines

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-925 Tue, 02 Jan 2018 00:23:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-925 The verb “to practise” is spelled thusly.

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-924 Mon, 01 Jan 2018 21:14:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-924 Why is this website deleting totally innocuous posts? Open Democracy eh? You Globalist shills should really practice what you preach.

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By: Leviathan https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-923 Sat, 30 Dec 2017 20:20:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-923 Yes I know what you mean about the loss of freedom of movement: it’s a pity. But I think the expansion of the EU to relatively poorer nations has meant that that freedom is more attractive to citizens of those nations who can migrate to, and find work in, Germany, France, Holland or the UK than it is the other way round. I don’t under-estimate the inconvenience that Brexit poses to would-be UK expats but, one way or another, the tide is inward rather than outward. Wealth distribution is a fine principle but I wouldn’t mind a say in it,
As an old git I welcome inward migration since I require young bloods to finance my pension, but I believe that nation states, sovereign states, should decide their own immigration policy. There are certain indivisible political and social groupings – no, not cities, not regions, but, rather, nations, united by geography perhaps, language, custom – that should indeed be sovereign entities.
You mention rentier capitalism which, I infer, you and I both deprecate. Got any better ideas?

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-922 Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:40:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-922 (a) A question of the Overton window being moved old chap. I’m sure Leon Trotsky would have considered the DNC a bastion of Right wing Kulak Capitalism. (b) I’m not American. (c) Try and put into practice the Virtue Signalling, Anti-racist Cuckery that you are so keen to preach on this forum.

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-921 Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:00:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-921 That’s to the Clinton Foundation which is not remotely Left unless you’re a politically neutered American – in which case you have no idea what the concept of Left means.

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By: Arthur Blue https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-920 Sat, 30 Dec 2017 13:35:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-920 A continually rising world population is not sustainable, and that is a problem which cannot be addressed by simply building anti-immigrant walls. No such wall has ever held over longer periods of time.
As far as the U.K. population is concerned then the sustainable population could be either higher or lower than the current one, depending upon factors like our own food and energy self-sufficiency, and consumption patterns. The big population problem right now, however, is that we have an ageing population, and one where the general level of skills is not keeping up with technological developments.
Currently we need migrants, particularly younger ones with skills. We also have an obligation, on humanitarian grounds, to accept a proportion of refugees ( some of whom of course could have useful skills ). Whatever our absorptive capacity really is, it is certainly a good bit higher than current policy admits.

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By: Arthur Blue https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-919 Sat, 30 Dec 2017 13:00:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-919 The record of all UK governments in supporting workers and encouraging entrepreneurship is patchy to say the least, and particularly dubious in the case of the current one. What has been consistently supported, both openly and covertly, is rentier capitalism.
The EU is not much better, but it does provide some benefits, for UK citizens, in trade and freedom of movement which Brexit is poised to remove.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-894 Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:59:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-894 The whole debate was a fiasco. I have never supported any Tory crooks, whether it was Cameron or far right Tories. They are all lying scumbags.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-893 Thu, 21 Dec 2017 17:37:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-893 So the leaflet that SUPPORTED your position on the EU was propaganda, just so that we’re all clear on that one?

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-887 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 21:55:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-887 It never ceases to amaze me that ignorant morons think that calling themselves adults (and calling others children) is how to win arguments.

Go fuck yourself, retard: nobody else would want to.

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-886 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 21:22:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-886 Aww, the triggered little remoaner monkey is gracing us here with his presence. Go away little boy, it’s adults debating on this thread here. I’ll get back to you when you’ve got something coherent to say tumbleweed.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-885 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 20:16:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-885 Yes. it is. I suppose you are stupid enough to believe anything they tell you.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-884 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 20:13:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-884 That’s a stupid question. There is a big difference between another 10 million educated and skilled people, compared with 10 million uneducated lazy Brits who whine about foreigners taking their jobs.

And BC’s point is about the old-age dependency ratio: the proportion of people retired to those in work who have to pay for their pensions. Immigrants work and pay taxes to support UK pensioners: got it now?

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-883 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 20:12:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-883 The question is whether you understand anything at all. The evidence suggests not.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-882 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 20:10:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-882 Not “stupid” government — just incompetent and corrupt. The electorate has repeatedly voted for them, so one might claim “you get the politicians you deserve”.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-881 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 20:08:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-881 I don’t know what you think a remainder is: is it the animal that drives Santa’s sleigh?

And your questions make no more sense, either. Policies are enacted locally. Perhaps you mean how are policies created. A totally different question. So, no, nobody from the age of 10 can answer a meaningless question — whatever you think.

As for people not knowing what the EU policies are, this is a reflection of the low level of education on the matter across the UK and the lack of proper coverage by news media and schools. One of the chief protagonists of Brexit (Piggy Johnson) was engaged as a second rate journalist a decade ago, and spent his time writing lies and scurrilous anti-EU propaganda, as indeed he also did in the Brexit campaign. So, why are you celebrating UK ignorance? You should be ashamed of it.

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-880 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 18:45:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-880 https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/why-did-the-saudi-regime-and-other-gulf-tyrannies-donate-millions-to-the-clinton-foundation/

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-879 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 18:40:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-879 You do understand the terms ‘Racism’ and ‘Playing the Race Card’ are two different concepts don’t you?

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-878 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 17:19:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-878 Again, it’s speculation – though I have no idea why you think racism is no longer relevant. Soros has little or no influence on this web site (with the possible exception of the oD Russia section). The facts (remember them?) are that he is rich, he is Jewish and some people are so far out to the Right that they consider him to be Left. The difference hereis that he is LISTED as a donor. There is no secret funding.

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-877 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 17:11:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-877 I disagree with the Russia theory too but there is a case to answer. Personally I think the money will have come from VERY nasty private sources in the US but my speculation is of no more nor less value than anyone elses’s.

What dark money has funded the Left? Or do you mean New Labour?

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-876 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:47:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-876 I don’t disagree with you. I would be very interested in good investigative journalism to ascertain where this £450 million came from. I think big money (both open and dark),funding the Left and the Right, and buying elections in the West, has been a stain on our democracies for decades; a true subversion of the will of the people. What I am sick of is the ‘Muh Russian’ narrative, with Putin as the master string-puller getting Trump elected and Brexit through. I’m calling it out for what it is; Horseshit.

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-875 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:34:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-875 It’s 2017. Playing the ‘race card’ doesn’t work anymore.

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-874 Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:31:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-874 “I’m interested in facts not baseless speculation”. What part of that statement are you having trouble with comprehending?
You can’t interchange the names because Soros is a proven fact, and Putin, (in the absence of any current evidence), isn’t.
Try and grasp the subtleties of what’s getting said in a statement before commenting on it.

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By: Paul https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-866 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:50:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-866 It is not just about economics. I ask remainders the following three questions, one – how is policy enacted in the UK? most people from the age of ten upwards can give a reasonable answer, my second question is what has been the biggest policy enacted by the EU? some people come up with the answer the Euro, you know that policy that has left a Mediterranean generation jobless or as graduates working in coffee bars in London and the third question is how is policy enacted in Europe? I have had two correct answers, one from a internationally renowned professor of organisational behaviour and design and other by a civil servant to a former secretary for state for Europe. I have probably asked in a region of 200 plus people, generally educated to a university level (or more). If we organise how we are governed in a manner that only a few understand then when people do not get what they vote for, the’ll blame “the foreigners” “the blacks” “the poles” “the Jews (followed by bankers) or democracy itself. The British Empire was bankrupted and destroyed by fighting the Second World War – that wasn’t about economics, it was doing the right thing.

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-865 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:32:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-865 I think it’s more likely to be plain old fashioned Antisemitism…

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-864 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:15:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-864 So you are stating that the government’s leaflet on the referendum was “propaganda”? Just to be clear, is that correct?

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-863 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:14:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-863 BC. We have a population of around 68 million; what would you like it to be? Let’s start with that question, then progress.

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By: Andy https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-862 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:03:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-862 Brexit is ruining everything, rumors are that car plants will move out of UK Brexit. Many companies where we live are going to move to EU. UK is breaking apart and it would be left with England and very poor. We voted Brexit but we were fooled by lying politicians leave campaigners. We want to change our vote to remain, but how. this stupid government won’t give us another referendum

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By: Leviathan https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-861 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:09:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-861 As I understand it the EU changed their own auditing process in 2002, splitting their budgeted accounts into two categories: the first (the largest) portion that auditors were indeed willing and able to sign off on; the second (and smallest, though still absolutely large) portion that the auditors were not. Thus the EU presents a set of accounts to which their auditors (owned and funded by the EU by the way – just saying) can give a clean bill of health and keeps the other “irregular” (read: potentially fraudulent) part separate. In 2015 this second part amounted to 7 billion Euros.
So, yes, the EU does have fully audited and signed off accounts; unfortunately they are only partial accounts.

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By: Chris Lovett https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-859 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:04:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-859 http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

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By: Paul Ingrams https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-860 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:04:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-860 Des, you wicked traitor you! How could you argue against granting full sovereignty to Boris Johnson and Owen Patterson, Iain Duncan-Shite, Govey and the Moggster, Rwedwood and Bone-aparte and the other swivel-eyed Tory loonies? They’re the ruling class, they deserve to rule, even if it’s only a small US prison colony off the coast of Europe. Mr Dacre (with his 56% salary increase to £2.5 mill. – where’s tat money coming from, surely not D Mail sales!) will be cross!

Seriously, this is a most excellent article, making many good points that my own blog was making as long ago as 2013 and for the past year linking Brexit to billionaire disruptors and the white crusade…. Sadly I have an average daily readership of roughly less than five, but we’ll ignore that.

Where do I sign?

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By: Chris Lovett https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-858 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:58:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-858 The EU accounts have in FACT been audited and signed off every year since 2007. You fell for the lies.Oh, and Mr. Varoufakis advice to Mr. Corbyn was to argue for remain.

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By: Michael Hopkins https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-857 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:45:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-857 Des, absolutely accurate! Nice to see an ex-colleague arguing the case so well. I’d be pleased if you could share my petition to revoke Article 50. As above I have many similar stories that you can see at the foot of my petition on https://www.change.org/p/uk-parliament-stop-brexit-c1f72095-d955-4504-9fa2-2c278d204e95?recruiter=622263122&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=petition_signer_receipt

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-856 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:40:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-856 “I’m merely repeating the author of the pathetic article above.”

No. You’re not. The author floats this as a possibility.

“I’m interested in facts, not baseless speculation by somebody with a political axe to grind.”

But you’re not interested in the fact that £450 million was laundered through the DUP by an unknown donor. Nor are you interested in the fact that the government refuses to investigate the source of this money. You’re very selective about your “facts”, aren’t you?

“Facts like Open Democracy being funded by George Soros for example.”

Oh! Here we go. The great Jewish conspiracy theory. Soros hands out grants like sweeties. The amount he gives oD is relatively small. He has no input into content whatsoever and I doubt if he’s even recognise the name if you mentioned it to him.

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By: Red https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-855 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 12:15:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-855 Pretty funny to dismiss fake news about funding from Putin only to jump right ahead with the exactly the same argument you’ve dismissed by just changing a name, Putin to Soros. Ah, irony…

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-854 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 11:53:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-854 I’m merely repeating the author of the pathetic article above. I’m interested in facts, not baseless speculation by somebody with a political axe to grind. Facts like Open Democracy being funded by George Soros for example.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-853 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 11:13:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-853 If you think I am younger than a middle-aged adult, this is clear evidence of your total lack of any grip on reality.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-852 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 11:09:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-852 It is not correct to state that invocation of Art. 50 cannot be rescinded. There are political issues for other EU countries, but there may be enough goodwill… This is most likely to occur with a new Left government rather than with incompetent Mayhem and her band of Merry Trolls.

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-851 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:55:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-851 “The FACT is that our population is rising by 400,000 a year, and that is NOT SUSTAINABLE! ”

We have an ageing population and that is what is not sustainable. Without immigration, the productive part of the population will be too small to support the economy. Most people understand that.

So a static population is NOT sustainable. Get it?

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-850 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:49:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-850 “Putin was financing the Leave campaign?”

We don’t know who it was. That is the point. Why won’t they tell you?

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-849 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:48:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-849 ” As for neoliberalism, well it is yet to be demonstrated that that is an unequivocally bad philosophy”

It was proven in 2008 when the banks crashed. This was the cause of austerity by the way, not supposed Labour Party profligacy.

“…but, even if it were, then the EU is at least as much in thrall to its tenets as the UK. ”

Simply untrue. The UK and the US are the centres of neo-liberalism. In the the US there are 41 million people living below the internationally recognised poverty line with 8 million having no income at all. This is considered to be a good thing because it keeps wages down and profits up.

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-848 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:43:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-848 “You know, you remember, remember how the country lost all its money? ”

The country cannot lose all it’s money. It has a sovereign currency.

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By: BC https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-847 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:40:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-847 “Oh Lord, paranoia and conspiracy theories abound!”

No. It’s called realistic and credible analysis – of “Fake News” if you support Donald Trump.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-846 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:18:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-846 Cretin.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-845 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:17:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-845 Go fuck yourself, wanker. Let’s use words you are familiar with.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-843 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:16:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-843 I did not actually state that all billionaires are crooks, although the vast majority clearly are. You do not become a billionaire, other than inheriting money (which should not be possible for such large amounts anyway), simply by working hard or having a good business idea. The amassing of this sort of wealth requires creating a market monopoly or oligopoly and dealing aggressively with competition — as well as avoiding taxes. Any common person who behaved like this would be arrested and prosecuted on a number of criminal charges.

As far as the Tories are concerned, it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference between incompetence and corruption or economic self-interest. But this is a political phenomenon well-known in the Third World and is actually a device to maximise the theft of a country’s assets. The Tories have introduced several Third World political practices to the UK, so this is no surprise.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-844 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:16:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-844 You are a cretin. The referendum was not legally binding. I am not interested in links to propaganda.

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By: Leviathan https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-842 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:55:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-842 You make a good point about the incompetence of the Tory party, though I hesitate to call it corrupt. Not sure the alternative is any better, mind. However your citing of the “looney right” countries in the EU ignores the fact that, in Brussels, these regimes are despised, dismissed and ignored by the unaccountable apparatchiks who actually formulate and implement policy. I stick by my assertion that these functionaries tend to be left-leaning; whether or not you believe that is a good thing or not, I prefer the will of a national electorate to trump that of a (largely unengaged) supra-national electorate.
I also reiterate my belief that the UK is, and will remain, at least as supportive of workers’ and human rights as any of our continental partners – with the exception, perhaps, of the Scandinavian economies. There may be a difference in balance between supporting workers and encouraging entrepreneurship but one only has to look at the stifling red tape in France to conclude that the UK has that balance closer to a golden mean.
I dispute your assertion that all billionaires are crooks but I do agree that the increasingly over-weening power of capital requires some restraint. As for the crooks themselves, their activities must be condemned and prohibited.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-841 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:50:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-841 I exposed that your opinions are worthless by explaining that you made an error about an ‘advisory referendum’. You can’t counter it because you have been educated by me, and you can’t handle it. Now, I have to go to work, and you, well, you’re late for school, again! It explains a lot.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-840 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:47:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-840 You uneducated Brexiteers are all the same — full of your arrogant spite and so fucking sure you know how the world works, when you are clueless. Go and get a decent education and stop polluting the discussion pages.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-839 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:46:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-839 Superb, another example of your massive intellect.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-836 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:45:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-836 Love it! What did the Labour Party do during its term of office from 1997 to 2010? As you say: “The UK since 1979 has systematically removed all workers’ rights and has done nothing to promote human rights” Did you forget Labour was in power for 13 years? You know, you remember, remember how the country lost all its money? There you go, it’s all coming back now, isn’t it?

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-837 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:45:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-837 I repeat: anti-semitic propaganda. You are the child, with silly ideas in your deformed head.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-838 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:45:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-838 Go on, give it a try! Try not swearing, for starters, then I might believe you are older than 10.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-835 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:44:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-835 You are not intellectually competent to interpret facts anyway. There is little point in debating with biased idiots.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-834 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:37:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-834 You can’t hold a reasoned debate with facts. Everyone here is a witness to that. You could at least try.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-833 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:35:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-833 Can you add anything to a debate, you know, like reasoned argument, without acting like a 10 year-old? Try not swearing. Try countering someone’s argument with facts rather than opinion. Try being a grown up.

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-831 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:32:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-831 Lovely example of your intelligence, couldn’t have asked for more. Thanks, because I’m just about to blow your puerile remark away:

“We will implement what you decide”
At the bottom of page 20
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

“Racist” Brilliant! You see, anyone who says that now shows more about themselves than anyone else possibly could. You just can’t help but show your ignorance, can you. You’ll exhibit it with every opportunity offered.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-832 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 09:32:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-832 The sheer incompetence and corruption of the Tory party far surpasses such problems within the EU. The EU bureaucracy is far from left-leaning, unless you are a supporter of the extreme Right that has taken hold of the Tory Party and also UKIP. The EU is centre right, with several looney right countries such as Hungary, Poland and Austria. There are a few centre left governments, which have been unable to change the right wing political direction of the EU.

AS for your hilarious and sad claim that “the UK has been a beacon for.. workers’ and human rights”, obviously you occupy a world of propaganda and nonsense. The UK since 1979 has systematically removed all workers’ rights and has done nothing to promote human rights: on the contrary, the Tories want to quit the European Convention on Human Rights. Of course, after 1945 the UK was as you describe — usually under Labour governments and is in a different universe now. If anything, the UK is the least supportive of workers’ and human rights in the developed world, along with hte USA. People in Britain rely on the protection of the EU legal framework — which they have now voted to abolish. This is mass suicide for the common people of the UK — and very useful for the billionaires and other crooks.

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By: simon https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-830 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:56:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-830 The Tories are avoiding talk of a 2nd referendum in the name of party unity but ironically unless the Tory govt hold a 2nd referendum it is likely to prove electorally disastrous.Brexit will produce both winners and losers.The losers will be bitter about it and they will include many who voted Brexit and then they will whine `why did we not have the chance of a second vote`.
It is dishonest of any Brexiteer to claim that people knew what they were voting for in 2016.Nobody did. I know nobody who expected a Brexit divorce bill of £40 billion plus or in mainland UK grasped the complexity of the Northern Ireland border issue.
It is also dishonest of Brexiteers to claim a 52-48 vote is fully democratic.
Incidentally the bookies odds on the day were 3/1 Leave i.e if you had held the referendum on 4 separate days the bookies believe Remain would have won on 3 out of the 4 days. Not that bookies odds are always accurate.
The current odds on a 2nd referendum taking place are 5/1 and I`ve backed that as I believe the real odds are a lot lower for the above stated reason that some Tories have to realise the political risks to them if Brexit creates lots of losers and they have not given those losers a 2nd referendum the Tories will get punished for it
I am uncertain what the result of a 2nd referendum would be.

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By: Leviathan https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-829 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:46:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-829 Thank you for your reasoned and thoughtful response – always good to debate these issues in an intelligent fashion.
I think the EU’s corruption is shown partly by the fact that their accounts have not been signed off for, ooh, how many years?, partly by the self-interested response to financial crises in southern Europe and partly by the shameless feeding at the EU expenses trough (as evinced, incidentally, by Mr Farage’s conduct); beside that then the UK Parliamentary expenses scandal, for example – which was met with widespread condemnation and at least an attempt at reform – pales into insignificance. As for neoliberalism, well it is yet to be demonstrated that that is an unequivocally bad philosophy but, even if it were, then the EU is at least as much in thrall to its tenets as the UK. And if Mr Varoufakis is to be believed, more so.
Unlike you, I think the potential economic consequences are far from clear; there is a range of possible outcomes, not all of them bad. And the UK has been a beacon for the establishment of workers’ and human rights; why shouldn’t it continue to be so?
From your disparagement of Tory politics I infer that you would rather outsource political control to a, I repeat, unaccountable left-leaning European bureaucracy than trust the will of the electorate in your own country. Many people would not.

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By: Jonathan https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-828 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 06:38:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-828 Regardless of someone voted Leave or Remain, the truth is, once Article 50 is triggered, there is no turning back.

There is no second referendum on the agenda because it would be meaningless. The EU themselves confirmed that today. It wouldn’t be impossible, but 35 territories would have to agree, each with a veto, and there would be major conditions that the public would not accept. We need to accept Brexit reversal is off the cards.

Many EU countries see Brexit as a great opportunity for them, especially France and Germany who wish to replace London as the financial capital of the world.

Both campaigns promised/threatened things that have not happened or are unlikely to. The campaigning is over and now the government need to implement Brexit with a long term agenda. It will be impossible to please hard brexiters, remainers and soft brexiters. There seems to be limited strength and consistency from our side and I fear that we will end up with the worse of both worlds (in without the power to input anything towards policy)

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By: indierockhead https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-827 Tue, 19 Dec 2017 00:53:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-827 Putin was financing the Leave campaign? Oh dear, more fake news. Outside meddling in our election? Well that would be Globalist George Soros funding open border shills like OpenDemocracy. Hey George have you checked how your money’s getting spent on these poorly written propaganda pieces? I guess $18 billion doesn’t get you much these days.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-826 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 23:56:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-826 Welcome to all the half-witted Brexit trolls who just arrived. I suppose you think you are really clever, fucking up our country in order to promote your far right racism and general nastiness. Or perhaps you are not even British voters: who knows what trollery is going on, especially organised by Putin.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-825 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 23:54:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-825 Don’t look in the mirror, is my advice, if you don’t like seeing old crap.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-823 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 23:52:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-823 Cretinous remarks. It was an advisory referendum that did not reflect the “will of the people” at all. This is the point of the article.

AS for your ignorant remarks about immigration, this merely indicates that you are economically illiterate. AS well as being racist. Typical Brexit voter.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-824 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 23:52:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-824 Flagged as anti-semitic propaganda. Go fuck yourself, half-wit.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-822 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 23:50:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-822 Nope, I talk economics and reality. I leave the rubbish to idiots like you and the other Brexiteers here.

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By: Reginald Bowler https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-821 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 22:45:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-821 “The economic consequences of Brexit are very clear”

What rubbish you do talk.

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By: Mombasa69 https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-820 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 22:38:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-820 What a load of old crap lol

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By: CockneyblokefromReading https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-819 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 22:34:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-819 This is a truly appalling article. Why is this website named ‘opendemocracy’?!?
You can’t in all seriousness suggest that because people didn’t bother to vote, the vote result shouldn’t stand?
“It is now evident that many of those who voted to leave had no idea what this entailed”
This is complete an utter tosh. David Cameron made it plain enough – 28 times in a single TV interview – “Leaving the EU means leaving the single market and customs union”. That was echoed by George Osborne – time and again. We all knew what we were voting for, and for the majority of people it was to regain control of our borders because of the EU’s insane immigration policy. Economics simply don’t come into it!

“Surveys confirm that enough people have now changed their position that, if there was a second referendum, a majority would now vote to remain in the EU.”
A total lie. Simply go to the YouGov website where they actually explain it. Even the pollsters who carried out the poll for the Independent’s inglorious headline this week have had to state a disclaimer.

The FACT is that our population is rising by 400,000 a year, and that is NOT SUSTAINABLE! We can do nothing about the birth rate, nothing about the death rate, so the only tool we have left is that of immigration control – which is exactly what we will now have. Germany and France will not! Watch what will happen to them in the next ten years.

I say again (for those who can’t figure it all out): It doesn’t matter if Brexit cost a million jobs, it doesn’t matter if it seriously harms our economy, it doesn’t matter if it causes massive wage increases…a 400,000 people a year population rise is NOT sustainable. Get it?

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By: James Martin https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-818 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 22:21:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-818 George Soros, his money and influence is never far away is it ? makes sure he is outside the jurisdictions he interferes in.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-817 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 22:16:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-817 The EU is less corrupt and less neoliberal than the UK, so you can stop that nonsense. The economic consequences of Brexit are very clear: nothing good can come of it, the only issue is exactly how bad it will be. Moreover, the consequences for the working people — i.e. not the Tories — are unequivocally bad, with obvious indications of declining workers’ rights in the UK not to mention the loss of the right to migrate to EU countries for work.

So no, this is not paranoia: this is reality. Your complacent nonsense about muddling through is typical Tory incompetence. You know where you can shove it.

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By: Leviathan https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/brexit-economic-catastrophe-must-stopped/#comment-816 Mon, 18 Dec 2017 21:26:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=2053#comment-816 Oh Lord, paranoia and conspiracy theories abound!
In fact the economic consequences of Brexit are far from certain and far from being certainly deleterious. I think we’ll muddle through.
But the reasons for wishing to leave the EU remain the same and remain robust: the EU is a corrupt, bureaucratic, incompetent, unaccountable polity whose avowed aim, a United States of Europe, is incompatible with nationalism or localism; and many people (ignorant, ill-educated, backward-looking proles though they may seem) value their nation & their locale.

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