Comments on: What kind of capitalism is it possible for the left to build? https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=kind-capitalism-possible-left-build Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:23:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.3.4 By: zavaell https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1442 Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:23:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1442 The article contains an interesting mix of the practical and how one inches towards a philosophy. The problem with Labour is that it rarely moves outside static and set-piece, dated positioning – most of its manifesto programme is fine but it seems to live somewhere between 1945 and the Sixties (and ignores Blair and Brown) The problem with that is that the average punter will see an outdated programme as “and so…?” I understand that Mason is covering a massive amount of ground, but I submit that without a governing philosophy that is fresh and contemporary, but relevant to tackling the most important contemporary and future challenges we face globally, Labour will suffer all the failures outlined in the article. Without doubt, the single greatest challenge is climate change with storms, flooding and extremes of temperature reducing crop yields. Yes of course the well-being of a population of 60 million is vital too, but everything on Labour’s wish list puts the environment at the bottom of its list. There can’t be any doubt that shifting to a totally different economic regime that replaces the gold standard by low carbon output is essential. Round that central philosophy can be cast those policies that help the lowest paid (even equalize wages to a far greater extent) and yet push employment that tackles climate change. In essence, ‘the left’ has the germs of a good idea but too often sounds extremist (in an old-fashioned sense) and bound by out-of-date thinking. Make the leap into the future – don’t try and squash the Greens: work with them in a new progressive programme. The future comes at us so much faster than Labour can seemingly handle.

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By: Neil https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1297 Tue, 26 Jun 2018 09:57:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1297 There isn’t an inevitable connection between socialism and (state) managerialism – there have always been alternate currents and motives.

Nor, contrary to today’s conventional ‘wisdom’, is there anything inevitable about capitalism. It is also extremely questionable in my view whether capitalism can be ‘socialised’ in the way advocates of this strategy suggest. Dispossession, exploitation, environmental destruction, growth, hierarchy, materialism, alienation driven by the need for profit are not incidental, or accidental, features of capitalism – they are its inherent design features. Pointing out examples of western social democracy as counterfactual evidence doesn’t wash for me – it was/is only something possible within an overarching system of brutal capitalist exploitation – a good life and apparent freedom bought at others expense – and the expense of nature.

Capitalism can only *appear* to be socialised – underneath it will always remain a beast and destroyer of men’s bodies and souls, other creatures, and the earth we depend on. Is this what we really want? If some of us actually managed to get it would we, like all victors before, obliterate knowledge and memory of the misery and destruction on which our comfort was built?

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By: Vern https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1296 Tue, 26 Jun 2018 02:23:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1296 The choice is between a statist managerialism and a non-statist socialisation of capitalism. The first course is pretty much status quo leftism – engage in propagandist activity aimed at capturing the state, once it is captured replace its managers with your own managers, and dispense goods and services downwards to passive clients. This is status quo managerialism of the kind practiced by the Left around the world for the last 130 years.

The second course is to construct communities and businesses today that embody our preferred ways of doing things, building the relational social fabric that we want in the here and now, dismantling the agit-prop culture that has paralysed left movements for a century, and accepting the world-wide evidence around us that methodologies based on concentrations of power produce outcomes characterised by concentrations of power.

These are the two options that have confronted left movements since the 1890s. Having opted for the latter for the last 130 years and watched concentrations of capital, wealth and power grow steadily over that time, perhaps it is time for the left to concede defeat for that strategy and try the alternative.

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By: Neil https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1295 Mon, 25 Jun 2018 10:33:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1295 Thank you. I have already seen this piece. The Medialens people are the rare, honourable exception to the tacit or overt support for Mason one is seeing on the left and centre left.

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By: Adrian D https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1294 Mon, 25 Jun 2018 09:30:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1294 Mason knows on what side his bread is buttered and that any deviation from the nefarious Putin narrative will likely see him ostracised by his peers.

You can see more of it here:

http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/838-paul-mason-and-the-grand-propaganda-narratives.html

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By: Adrian D https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1293 Mon, 25 Jun 2018 09:24:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1293 Can anyone explain to me why Mason has ruled out capital controls? I understand that it would be hard for a Eurozone country, but I see no reason why a post-Brexit Britain could not introduce them at the stroke of a pen. Iceland after the GFC and Malaysia in the late nineties had no problem introducing them and both recovered more comprehensively than others in their respective predicaments.

All the rest of his suggestions would either be more easily introduced or rendered unnecessary if we could simply restrict the flow of capital to that which supports the real economy and curtail it otherwise.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1291 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 23:13:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1291 I am not arguing about the terrible power of international finance; however, it is rivalled by the power of billionaires and multinationals — many of whom are disinterested in productive investment and more concerned with parasitic capitalism.

Land value tax would have been a reasonable idea some decades ago: it is now no solution at all. You can call it implementation, if you like , but the fact is that we do not start from a hypothetical zero. We start from where the UK is now.

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By: Conall https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1290 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 22:02:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1290 Your comments betray the fact that you have little idea of the power that international finance can exert, OK with the willing collusion of Tories. The Bank Levy was forced on an unwilling Osborne. He softened the ‘blow’ to the banks by setting an absurdly low rate. Land value tax is applauded by economists of all stripes, only its implementation is considered politically impractical.

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By: Neil https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1289 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 21:34:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1289 I like that line: ‘A bold leap into the status quo!’

Pseudo-leftist radicals like Mason need to be called out – they are insidious because they not only appeal to the right wing activist and politicians of course but, because of their fake radical reputation, might also fool many/some left wing inclined. Unfortunately Mason is being given a lot of space to propagate his conservative and dangerous liberal views and, as far as I know, he is not being publicly criticised even by intellectuals I respect. I think it’s a typical English thing – open, clear criticism of those seen as close in some way is seen as impolite. Thus their views dont’ get challenged or confronted. Sad …

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1287 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:38:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1287 Total garbage, here.
(1) The UK never lost control: it remained under the control of the Tories and their billionaire supporters. Nothing to do with the EU at all.
(2) Greece was not terrorised by big finance: it was terrorised by the national interests of Germany and France, backed up by all the eurozone.
(3) There is nothing proposed by Osborne that could be called “highly intelligent”. The guy is a total waste of space.
(4) Land value taxation is a stupid idea. The problem is not with banks: it is with governments that collude with banks and big business — notably, the Tories in the UK. The economic answers to the UK’s problems, and those of the eurozone, are all political. Taxes are not a solution to anything: they will actually worsen the situation.

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By: Thijs https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1286 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 19:51:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1286 Thank you (and sorry for the formatting above).

I agree with you, it looks like Mason is hellbent on shaping the national policy of a prospective Labour government, and he’s been making many moves to the right on various issues, from migration to defense policy. Here he’s doing the same but on wealth distribution and internationalism.

All the marxist references are only little side dishes to the main course which isn’t progressive at all, more like a bold leap into the status quo, which clearly is in need of solutions to its expanding crisis.

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By: Conall https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1285 Fri, 22 Jun 2018 17:16:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1285 ‘Take back control’ was the persuasive slogan of the Brexiteers. Exactly. But who has control over us? Is it the ramshackle EU bureaucracy or is it International Finance?

As Paul Mason makes clear it is the power of big finance to terrorise a country (see Greece) that is the significant external non-democratic Controller. How can we take back control of our own money from these shadowy rootless institutions who will fight dirty, and don’t give a fig for the hardships they impose.

Can I suggest TWO policies that would shrink the banks (given that Positive Money’s Sovereign Money proposal might be too dangerous to implement)

1. Increase the rate of George Osborne’s Bank Levy, a neglected yet highly intelligent Tax brought in by the Coalition Government.

2. Introduce Land Value Taxation on housing as fast as is practical. This will deprive the banks of most of their mortgage lending opportunities, and force them to look elsewhere to make loans to productive enterprises.

Both of these policies will shrink the banks’ balance sheets, and consequently their power to terrorise. Neither policy need be trumpeted in advance and could be brought in swiftly during the first Crisis.

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By: cantloginas_Momo https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1284 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 14:53:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1284 Er, yes, but wishing the resurrection of an empire is one thing. To think that it is possible to do it is an altogether different thing. Very diplomatically put, I have my doubts that “Shenzhen, Bombay and Dubai” value their independence so little.

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By: Neil https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1283 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 14:31:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1283 This is excellent!!

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By: Neil https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1282 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 14:30:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1282 How? The perpetuation of western imperialism! Haven’t you been following Mason’s thinking?

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By: cantloginas_Momo https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1281 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 14:15:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1281 “It is a programme to deliver growth and prosperity in Wigan, Newport and
Kirkcaldy – if necessary at the price of not delivering them to
Shenzhen, Bombay and Dubai.”

I wonder why you think Shenzhen, Bombay and Dubai would accept that and let Wigan, Newport and
Kirkcaldy get away with it. Doesn’t appear very realistic to me.

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By: Claire Hartnell https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1280 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 14:01:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1280 An interesting article. But rooted in the past instead of the issues that we will face in the future.

Some thoughts in no particular order:

1) Getting gig economy back into the Labour force is not the answer. The Uber drivers themselves report that they prefer their flexible working style. An agile, flexible labour force is a positive thing for both people and trade. It gives people control over their lives (a very under-rated driver of wellbeing) and it gives businesses flexibility to expand and contract. Presently, the transaction balance between producers and employers is uneven because of the power of the Corporation. This article proposes re-tethering this agile workforce to the Corporation but surely this is equivalent to putting You-tubers on the News International payroll. Stifling for both sides. The question for the Left (and Right) is what is the future of the Corporation? Most global technology companies are run with skeleton management teams with production outsourced to users or free agents. What happens when the managers become dis-intermediated by AI? What is a Corporation then? The question for the Left is how to empower Labour in a post corporation world. To put it another way (sorry for this cultural reference): “there is no spoon”.

2) The dignity of work. Left thinking gets this all wrong. I like the idea of minimum wage and free services. It feels like an attractive baseline of human dignity in modern societies. But what’s the point in an education or healthcare if the Left is just using this as an opiate? Surely health and education without meaningful employment is one of the things that’s so wrong in our society. Why did we ever think that health, housing and welfare would be a decent substitute for working class, blue collar employment? This is what is killing communities and family life. The lack of secure, stable, dependable blue collar employment to sustain relationships. The State has become our mother, father, husband, wife and while that safety net is a damn sight better than the poorhouse, when did the Left give up on employment? About the same time we decided to outsource Labour to third world countries.

3) Cost of Labour. This seems to me to be the crux challenge for Left policy making and the reason for all the cognitive dissonance in the Labour party today. One side of the party says: globalise, trickle down, lots of social liberalism. The other side says: medicate the poor with benefits, old fashioned Labour supply and demand, more regulation and protection. All this misses the message of the Nationalists : bring back jobs, cost in the unfair advantages of third countries by using tariffs, give working people real work. This is EXACTLY why populism is so persuasive. Why can’t the Left in Europe see this? When we outsourced cheap Labour to third countries and got rid of tariffs, we systematically lowered all our prices. Great, we think. Except this is why we have had salary stagflation. Because we will never get our Labour costs down to the cost of children shelling prawns in Thailand or an online chatbot answering customer queries. So how do we price this in? Probably through tariffs on third countries and taxes on global corporates. Actually, I don’t know the answer but it isn’t through unregulated global trade and it isn’t through benefits and raised Labour regulation. This is what Trump sees and channels. Higher prices are what will empower the Labour force (author’s ‘skin in the game’). Prices rising will force up wages – or there’ll be a mass recessions as businesses fail. This is how you reset the balance.

Plenty more to say on this but I really have to rush …

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By: Thijs https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1279 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:12:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1279 Though Mason does not even try to explain or justify it, I think the question used as the title (‘What kind of capitalism can the
left build?’) is entirely wrong. Instead, the left should ask the
question what kind of NON-capitalism it is that we can and should build.

This
is a question not just for the Western left, which Mason speaks to, but
for the global left, which clearly needs rebuilding and reorienting,
with a large role in this for its non-Western parts. The momentous
current crisis which is ecological as much as it is economic and social,
requires a strategy at that level, to create a sane mode of production
which is both sustainable, and offers socio-economic freedom, good
standards of living and non-alienated work. Capitalism as opposed to forms of working class democracy can only worsen our ability to deal with all of these questions, as it excludes workers from all levels of decision making which affect their lives.

It seems clear that
Mason’s strategy can only result in doubling down on a distorted global
system where a huge mass of unproductive consumers (in the West, but not
exclusively) depend on global domination, robbery of resources and
exploitation in all other parts of the world. We need to break with the
system that has created this, instead of stabilising it yet again for
another round, and even presenting that stabilisation as something the
left should take upon itself.

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By: Neil https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1278 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 12:09:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1278 “Meanwhile, Russia’s perennial hybrid warfare against Western democracies …”

Incidentally, could someone help me out here and tell me if the above is an example of the concept of *projection* or *splitting*?

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By: Barrie Margetts https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1277 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 06:39:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1277 Great to have discussion on practical thought out actions for day one of a labour government.

Two questions/concerns:
1: assumptions about need for, and impact of growth in the economy. Is this compatible with impact on climate change- can ‘growth’ for majority come from great equity and redistribution?
2: that we have to put Wigan ahead of Mumbai ( Bombay as it used to be!) Can we achieve what works for UK by supporting greater global equity- why does it have to be at the expense of?

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By: Neil https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1276 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 06:27:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1276 Thank you. Well said! I am amazed at what passes for leftist thinking in Europe these days. Arguably the strongest advocates of TINA these days are those who claim to be radical leftists/social democrats or, even sometimes, democratic socialists. There is a serious need for a strong, revitalised, authentic anti-capitalist,ecological-socialist left – and a clear distinction and, where necessary, political separation from those ‘leftists’ such as the author who are working to save capitalism and imperialism.

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By: Moana https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1275 Thu, 21 Jun 2018 05:21:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1275 “For me the answer is yes. This is a programme to save democracy,

democratic institutions and values in the developed world by reversing
the 30-year policy of enriching the bottom 60% and the top 1% of the
world’s population.

It is a programme to deliver growth and prosperity in Wigan, Newport
and Kirkcaldy – if necessary at the price of not delivering them to
Shenzhen, Bombay and Dubai.”

An absolute waste of time that will lead to nowhere while exacerbating the environmental crisis.

I am surprised this sort of ecologically ignorant zombie-social-democracy still passes as serious thinking.

We face a system crisis. Mason’s proposed solution is to deny the problem by breaking part of the system. It reminded me of this parable : https://sufiways.com/2017/08/13/questions-terrorism-and-nasruddins-beard/

We have to leave this zero-sum game mindset. Sustainable and humane living requires the end of international economic competition. That may need the end of capitalism. In any case it will necessarily means the end of growth. This is the discussion we should be having.

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By: David Lloyd George https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1274 Wed, 20 Jun 2018 22:11:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1274 “This is a programme to save democracy, democratic institutions and values in the developed world by reversing the 30-year policy of enriching the bottom 60% and the top 1% of the world’s population. It is a programme to deliver growth and prosperity in Wigan, Newport and Kirkcaldy – if necessary at the price of not delivering them to Shenzhen, Bombay and Dubai.”

Those capitalist bastards, eh. “Enriching” the bottom 60%.

An absolutely remarkable comment. Socialism in one country lives.

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By: ANGRY_MODERATE https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1273 Wed, 20 Jun 2018 20:57:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1273 Sorry, Paul, but as a radical leftist I can tell you that the Left in the UK has totally lost the plot. oD is a good example of the brainless mentality that prevails – -where they promote factually incorrect articles and comments from the Right and relegate serious informed analysis to the role of incidental comments that can be deleted for minor ad hominem issues (and frequently very dubiously). Fundamental issues should be the starting point: including ‘practise what you preach’. By this criterion, the Left in the UK is not only hypocritical but also effectively dead, politically.

I think you are wasting your time with articles on oD, but there is a deficit of serious places to post radical left thinking.

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By: Nadim Mahjoub https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/kind-capitalism-possible-left-build/#comment-1272 Wed, 20 Jun 2018 17:30:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3137#comment-1272 “It is a programme to deliver growth and prosperity in Wigan, Newport and Kirkcaldy – if necessary at the price of not delivering them to Shenzhen, Bombay and Dubai.” leaving Dubai out, I disagree with that. It is Euro/Western centric. I would appeal for cooperation and solidarity to make an imapct on those regimes and and try to help the populations in those country understand our project.

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