Comments on: Our privatised water system has failed – it’s time to look for alternatives https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives Tue, 11 Sep 2018 13:03:42 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.3.4 By: Arthur Blue https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1354 Fri, 03 Aug 2018 16:43:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1354 It was votes in water and waste water ( although there was no general suffrage at the time ) which impelled Bazalgette to start his work.
You’re right though about the public’s undervaluing of one of life’s necessities, though this doesn’t actually let Thames Water off the hook.

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By: Arthur Blue https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1353 Fri, 03 Aug 2018 16:29:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1353 It was municipal Water Boards who were responsible for all the UK’s big water and sewerage schemes of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Not central government and not private companies. And these Boards were in every way far ahead of Thames Water and its like.

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By: xxyyzz123 https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1350 Thu, 02 Aug 2018 12:57:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1350 Whilst some of the content is accurate – particularly in reference to Thames Water’s financial structure – the article is woefully short on substantive detail about WHY the industry was privatised in 1989. After 40 years of state ownership , the infrastructure was in a state of permanent collapse, with leakage at roughly 40% and sewers simply not being replaced. Infrastructure investment simply hadn’t happened because there are no votes in water and waste water. Since then, billions upon billions have been invested on the infrastructure and on water and sewerage treatment processes. Demand grows at approximately 1% per annum but supply does not. The South East of England has less water per capita than Sudan or Syria, yet it only costs a couple of pounds a day per household to have a limitless supply of clean safe drinking water. For the vast vast majority of people in the UK this reality is true 365 days a year, 24 hours a day – yet still people bleat about the industry, as if privatising it will somehow cure its ills.

Isn’t it a happy coincidence that, after years and years of private company investment in the Parisian water infrastructure, when the state took over the bills could fall. No doubt they could do the same over here now that loads of work has been done but, as sure as eggs are eggs, the investment will not be maintained when funds dry up elsewhere and that money is needed for the NHS, or public transport, education, roads, social services etc etc. Then the rot will set in once more.

This is an ideological, socialist argument dressed up to pull on the anti fat-cat sentiments of jealous individuals. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and completely ignores history and human nature. The real problem is that the market is not allowed to operate properly – it is regulated by OFWAT, who are, quite frankly, useless. Do we want £1 a week off our water charges, or £500 million invested in fixing / preventing leakage? Ofwat has repeatedly gone for the £1 a week option. Since privatisation, it has repeatedly failed the consumer and has incentivised the wrong behaviours.

How about a real value being put on water – such that it becomes a valued commodity that people won’t recklessly use sprinklers on their gardens or won’t flush 2 gallons down the loo to get rid of half a pint of urine? Nobody blinks at £2.50 a day for a latte, £45 per month for their mobile phone, £70 a month for Sky TV and £200 a month for a brand new lease car – but £2 a day for unlimited water and waste water disposal? Never – it’s a rip off Tory thing and must be nationalised…really?

Be careful what you wish for.

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By: Alasdair Macdonald https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1349 Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:49:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1349 There is a good piece on the history of Glasgow’s water supply on the Scottish Water website. It is by the late George Wyllie, an artist who was lovably eccentric. There is a fountain in Kelvingrove Park in Glasgow which was erected to mark the opening of the system.

With regard to Labour, my scepticism is down to the fact that Labour is pretty severely riven, with a very large number of MPs openly hostile to Mr Corbyn’s leadership and the agenda he and his colleagues have set. In Scotland, he has made a number of statements which have been sympathetic to the aspirations of the Scottish Government, or, at least, not hostile to it, only to be very quickly forced into a retraction by the Scottish Labour MSPs, most of whom, with the exception of their leader, Mr Richard Leonard, are opposed to him. Devolution is further advanced in Scotland than elsewhere – indeed, it is close to 50/50 regarding independence – but, of all the Scottish parties, including the Tories, during the Smith Commission consultations, Scottish Labour was the most hostile to further devolved powers.

There is still amongst Labour MPs (yes, MPs) an attitude that they know what is best for the rest of the UK. Harriet Hartman and Yvette Cooper, for example were opposed – contemptuously – to devolution of powers on abortion being devolved to Scotland.

So, what you say might well be true about Labour’s stated policy, but I fear that when it comes to governance, they will revert to the dirigiste, ‘WE know what you need.’

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By: hettie.veronica https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1348 Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:37:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1348 In agreement that London receives a shameful proportion of the UK’s infrastructure spending while the rest of the country struggles by on patchy bus services and pacer trains. I also agree, regrettably, that without devolution of powers both economic and political we have little chance of realising a remunicipalisation agenda. But I’m not sure that I agree with you on Labour – the argument that they are as determined as the Conservatives to exercise centralised powers seems contradicted by promises of a “local government renaissance” or “municipal socialism” – unless you think these policies are just hot air?

I hadn’t heard about the Glasgow Corporation, but this sounds fascinating and is definitely something I’ll look into.

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By: Alasdair Macdonald https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1347 Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:06:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1347 Thank for the clarification and your recognition that Thames Water is a specific case. Although London has a large population – it is only around 15% of the UK – it receives a grossly disproportionate amount of infrastructure spending, with the North East of England receiving a pretty derisory amount.

Municipalisation of water is undoubtedly a feasible way of having public control. The example of Glasgow Corporation in the 19th century is an excellent example of municipal initiative.

Although water, per se, is an important case for public control, it is but a part of the wider issue of the constitutional reorganisation that is required in the UK, with powers located irreversibly at local levels and devolved as far as feasible to even more local communities. This also has to be accompanied by a change in the voting system.

I am not convinced that the Labour Party and the central management of the major trade unions wants to see Westminster ‘lose’ powers to local areas. They are as determined as the Tories to be able to exercise Westminster’s powers, albeit from ostensibly different value perspectives. I was a career long trade unionist and my father was a member of the old boilermakers’ Union, and, while I am a strong supporter of TUs, I am wary of the goal displacement which occurs in all large organisations from such as RBS, via trade unions like GMB, to third sector bodies like Oxfam.

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By: hettie.veronica https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1346 Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:53:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1346 I agree that London is by no means a model for the rest of the UK. But, as with GMB’s proposal the following day to remunicipalise water, my intention was to shed light on an issue that receives far less public attention than it should – particularly in light of the BBC documentary on Thames Water, which focused on the infrastructure project without critiquing the company.

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By: CommentTeleView https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1344 Thu, 26 Jul 2018 20:52:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1344 I can see the validity of the arguments that water supply is a natural monopoly, and therefore the benefits of a free market won’t be realised. But when discussing the performance of State utilities, reference to end-user prices are irrelevant and misleading. If prices are lower, it might just be that the service is subsidised. Water could even be supplied free of charge – the public pays either way. The important metrics are the quality of the service, and the total cost of providing it, including a market- and risk-related return on investment.

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By: Alasdair Macdonald https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1343 Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:15:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1343 Water is still in public ownership in Northern Ireland and Scotland, so this article is essentially about England and Wales and, specifically, about one company, Thames Water.

While I think that water and sewerage should be a public utility, I feel irritated by the tacit assumption that the experience of someone in London is the same as that for everyone else in England, and those in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

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By: Graham Mann https://neweconomics.opendemocracy.net/privatised-water-system-failed-time-look-alternatives/#comment-1341 Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:51:00 +0000 https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/?p=3276#comment-1341 Well Well Well,

I really do hope we can kickstart the debate Hettie O’Brien as I do feel the water industry is going down the tubes.
Take Paris for example now publicly owned though i do not know what the water infrastrcture leakage rate is.

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